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| Ansur Excel (used, for sale now) |
This last fitting attempt was the last straw, my beloved saddlee is now for sale. I need a new saddle, and my heart breaks. It's beautiful, it's brown, it's my dream saddle. Wanna buy it? ;-)
So last weekend I tried a treeless saddle. It was really an interesting experience -- I've never seen one up close, much less sat in one, but I got a chance to try the Ansur Excel. Pictured right you see a used Excel that I've been looking at. Notice how dressage-y it looks!
The fitter wisely had me ride in my Perfection first, then the Excel, and then the Perfection again. Wanna hear how it went? Stay tuned...
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I look forward to hearing all about it!
ReplyDeleteI know some people are passionate about treeless saddles and I can certainly see the drawbacks of a rigid tree, but this is how I see it. When in a dressage position, all our weight is in our "pin bones." Even with a lot of padding under them, that is still a lot of weight (well, at least for some of us!) per square inch in two concentrated spots, usually too close to the horse's spine for comfort and long-term health. I would much rather have a well-fitted tree with lots of padding under it more evenly distributing my weight across a much broader area of my horse's back and well away from the spinous processes.
For what it's worth, I also prefer the support of a well-fitted underwire bra. ;-)
Hmm, I'm VERY interested to hear, as I purchased a treeless barefoot saddle. I was told that the PAD is very important for the horse back, when riding in a treeless. I've yet to test ours out, but will be very soon! I hope it works out for us too!
ReplyDeleteWell said, Michelle. Though I hate underwire. Secure, full-coverage is very important to me, though.
ReplyDeleteSince the title, "Treeless is like Braless" was used, I am going to assume there was a connection implying some chaotic instability or a black eye ... ?? Hard to say.
I have to agree with Michelle....additionally Hilary Clayton gave a lecture on the equine back and saddles and the only saddle she would not recommend was a treeless. Her studies have shown exactly that..increased pressure in very small area of the back. Here's a link from The Horse http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19191
ReplyDeleteBut check out her site at MSU..she may have published the data from the studies regarding saddle fit..really hard to argue for treeless when you see the pressure maps.
"What you can see with the treeless saddle is a very definite concentration of pressure right underneath the rider's seat bones," said Hilary Clayton...."that's not the case with a well-fitted conventional saddle, which pressure mats reveal applies much more even pressure with lower peak forces across the horse's back", she said.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19191
Well, the Clayton article did mention seatbone pressure but interestingly did not mention spine pressure which is what everyone assumes will be vulnerable. She also said that an ill-fitting treed saddle is pretty darn bad too. (not her words)
ReplyDeleteHere'slink to the actual published paper by Hilary Clayton: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023311004667
ReplyDeleteWhile she did only try one type of treeless saddle , she references Latif et al,2010 who found similar pressure points with a treeless racing saddle.
Her saddle is the Lauriche, Andy Foster and that is the one used in the study. She mentioned in her talk here that she uses that saddle for her riding..and how well it fits all her horses...It is either no longer made or is custom only now.
Try a Trilogy. They have 3 different designs for different rider types.
ReplyDeleteI am going to dispute all who think treeless saddles create pressure.
ReplyDeleteA treed saddle creates pressure points from the tree, especially in the wither area. Good treeless saddles do not have that kind of pressure, and actual pressure studies done on the Ansur, in particular, show no significant pressure points on the horse's back.
I have ridden in an Ansur for 12 years now. I rode long and hard in mine on four different horses so far, with tons of sitting trot--horses competed up to FEI. I used a regular dressage pad, nothing fancy. My horses were regularly checked by am equine chiropractic veterinarian and more than once, he remarked what good shape their backs were in. They never showed any signs of saddle soreness.
Numerous endurance riders use treeless saddles--Ansurs and other brands--with great success on long, arduous rides.
A treeless saddle flexes and moves with the horse's back. A treed saddle cannot move the same way. Trees, even the more flexible ones, are fixed objects sitting on top of a moving form that changes shape from gait to gait.
I know that every treeless saddle is not equal. There are some bad models out there, as there are bad treed saddles out there.
The Ansurs with gullets--Excel, for one--do not touch the horse's spine. But the Classic I first rode in did, and even then with a conventional saddle pad, I had no back issues with my horses at all--Thoroughbreds, by the way, so rather sensitive fellows.
Very interesting. My friend had an Excel, but sold it after a couple years. She wanted to go back to a treed saddle, because her horse did not appear comfortable in the saddle anymore. I do not really have any first hand experience with treeless saddles, but I have always wondered about them as my horse is very difficult to fit.
ReplyDeleteMy curiosity is piqued. I've been told treeless saddles are amazing, and I've been told they're awful. People have peppered me with the pros and cons, and said they're both the best thing that ever happened and the worst. I tend to agree with Michelle, but I'm very curious to hear your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI've got both treeless and treed saddles. Currently I own a Freeform and a Heather Moffett Fhoenix, but have had Treeless saddles for 7-8 years
ReplyDeleteI have not had a problem with the treeless saddles at all. The Fhoenix has a gullet, the Freeform doesn't but I ride with a Skito pad.
I really like being able to feel my horse's back. I have my horse checked by a saddlefitter 2x year and while he was skeptical about treeless at first, my horse(s) have never had a sore back.
I still have treed saddles too -- haven't found a treeless that I want to hunt in or jump anything bigger than 2'. And I can't bear to part with my Roosli so I still have that.
They are different to ride in and take a bit of getting used to, but I do enjoy them.
Go to DKsaddlery.com. His saddles have adjustable trees with air bladders. My horses never get back sore and the tree is refit to them every six months!
ReplyDeleteAnsur, for a long time, has been referred to as "treeless" saddles.... but they are more correctly called "FLEX CORE", as they discuss on their website. I'm am also a 12 year user of Ansur saddles, now riding in the Excel and the Elite saddles, schooling at PSG/I and even working (training!) on piaffe and passage with a 20 year old Friesian. I use the same Excel saddle on my training level 6 year old Friesian stallion. I use a plain pad, no gimmicks...and it works. I compare the Ansur saddle more to a good pair of sneakers vs. a good pair of loafers. A "true" treeless saddle would be like "bedroom slippers". Which would YOU rather run the marathon in???? Bedroom slippers don't offer too much support, but the sneakers do. This is the Ansur...the "athletic shoe" of the saddle world..... full weight distribution, balance and support in a saddle that ALLOWS the horse to flex and bend and lift its back into engagement. Oh, yeah... just for fun, I also jump three foot log jumps with my old Friesian mare IN the Ansur Excel... she "cracks" her back, as the jumper people say... because she CAN in that flexable Ansur, and I'm fully secure in it. Heck, I used to compete in hunter paces, and did XC in the old Ansur Chic. Yup... I'm pationate about the saddle, but I've personally watched well over 30 horses improve their performance when switching to the Ansur saddles. Really......how much more proof do I need????? Horses simply don't lie about this.
ReplyDeleteI have a friesian that I've been riding in an Ansur excel for a year and during that time the sweat marks have all been on the back half of the pad. I've also had to shim the Ansur a bit up front because he has enough withers, the Excel rides down too much. Recently, I switched back to a Custom Icon Flight which fits us both well. I'm loath to return to all the hassles of saddle fitters, but now the sweat pattern shows a much more even distribution of weight over his back. I'm torn as to what is best. The Icon Flight is a W-XW tree - the saddle fits generously with a sheepskin pad directly on his skin, as I used with the Ansur saddle, but the lack of structure to distribute my weight (and I weigh 145 lb) concerned me. After each ride, I could see a slight depression in his back. So who is right? What is best? There are trade-offs.
ReplyDeleteI have a friesian that I've been riding in an Ansur excel for a year and during that time the sweat marks have all been on the back half of the pad. I've also had to shim the Ansur a bit up front because he has enough withers, the Excel rides down too much. Recently, I switched back to a Custom Icon Flight which fits us both well. I'm loath to return to all the hassles of saddle fitters, but now the sweat pattern shows a much more even distribution of weight over his back. I'm torn as to what is best. The Icon Flight is a W-XW tree - the saddle fits generously with a sheepskin pad directly on his skin, as I used with the Ansur saddle, but the lack of structure to distribute my weight (and I weigh 145 lb) concerned me. After each ride, I could see a slight depression in his back. So who is right? What is best? There are trade-offs.
ReplyDelete