Update: Since I wrote this, Harv is looking better. He is getting corn oil in his feed short term until I can get some fat supplement into his program. Hopefully by the time he loses all that hair he'll be back to his normal chubbiness.
Harv gets lots of food and hay -- really as much as is recommended by the Senior bag (Triple Crown) for a horse his age and size, and that is a lot -- it is fed in three feedings, along with hay, which he nibbles on all day as best he can, with his aging teeth. I do think he has lost weight over the winter. It has nothing to do with the quality of care he has received--he has always gotten consciencious care with regard to his diet, especially access to hay. Has something changed about his health? Winter is never easy on oldsters, but Harv has generally come through winter looking pretty good. Remember last year's birthday photos? I admit that I panicked a little when I saw this photo Bob took of him last Sunday. I hadn't noticed him looking all that thin -- he did look smaller and older, the way old folks do. But this photo has him looking gaunt, even with his winter coat.
So I went to the barn tonight, planning to develop a game plan for putting weight on him. I found him happily chewing from a generous portion of hay. I pulled him out of his stall, took of his sheet, and took a few more shots. Dammit. Here he doesn't look half-bad -- three days later. When he bends through the body I can see ribs, plural. But he looks pretty rounded, and his body score would probably not be too alarming.
A lot seems to hinge on where the camera eye is -- straight on he looks good, from an angle he looks leaner.
So starting last week, I have been adding oil to his feed, as a stopgap till I can get to the feed store to get more Ultimate Finish for him.
What do you all think? How worried should I be?
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I think he looks pretty good - esp. in the second photo. Sometimes the way they weight their feet (or not) makes a huge difference in how the barrel/withers/etc. look.
ReplyDeleteYou might try adding lysine. It can help him absorb the nutrients he's getting better and put them to better use in his system. Feeding wet can help with that too.
Next year you might try an extra feed tub a day during the winter months. I am just now taking my 30-year old back to 3 tubs a day as she is getting more grass as it comes in. During the winters she needs 4 to keep her weight steady through the winter.
It's the end of Winter and he's an old boy. Give him a short term calorie boost and wait for the spring grass to work its magic. I'd be more worried if he looked like that in May/June...but def worth a diary note to review his care program for next winter.
ReplyDeleteAs an additional thought, has he had his teeth done recently? An oldster on our yard was in a similar condition despite eating loads, but it turned out that he wasn't chewing well enough to release the nutrition as his teeth needed attention (although he wasn't technically due for the dentist yet).
Older horses tend to drop a little weight in the winter because their bodies are working overtime to keep them warm. Their hides become thinner as they age so blanketing is important but I know you do that. I would get him off the corn oil and move to canola oil. Corn oil use to be what we used (I did for years) but now they have learned that corn is very high in omega 6s which causes inflammation. Once I switched my arthritic old boy from corn oil to canola I saw a big difference.
ReplyDeleteI was told the same thing about corn vs canola oil and it is true. Canola is a little more expensive, but Sam's Club has a massive vat for a reasonable price. :)
DeleteAs I photographer that focuses more on horses than people I would say the one really important thing is the angle of the camera, the first picture because of the angle makes him look thinner where as you get a more realistic look from photographing straight on! I don't think he looks too bag! After doing a nutrition course maybe you need to add more lysine. Another idea I had was how about once a month you take a picture of him in the same exact position.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you should be worried at all. I do think you should be as you are - alert and attentive.
ReplyDeleteMy horse loses weight every spring and fall - so we have to up his feed for about a month each season, and I'm in AZ where there isn't a huge change in weather!
I do think Harv looks worse to you due to lack of muscle. As he ages and isn't worked he'll look "worse" because he has a big shoulder and hip. Think of how bony and lanky youngsters can look - he'll have the same kind of thing going on, only because of his age it will emotionally feel more alarming.
Maybe your vet can give you tips on assessing his body score so you can more easily keep track of his weight, or get a weight tape and regularly use it on him? It doesn't matter if it's accurate, just that you can tell the difference from one month to the next.
I think he looks very good for his age. Don't stress it if he is content. Some old TB's really do get kind of gaunt, especially in winter. Humans do too. If the horse is happy, comfortable, shiny coat, good appetite, decent exercise , and teeth maintained as well as possible for his age, then he is in good shape even if he is lean.
ReplyDeleteAmber-Rose is certainly right about camera angle. Photograph the horse to capture his conformation and you will also get the best picture of condition.
Even the first photo, making allowance for the angle, Harv looks OK to me for an old horse in winter.
You can't always keep an old TB looking the same year round, but you can keep him healthy and happy.
Cool Calories helped keep weight on my senior horse. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteWait till he gets his choppers on some good fresh grass this spring and he'll be fine. He's fine now, but good grass is the best thing for old horses.
ReplyDeleteI have been giving Hershey Standlee Premium Alfalfa pellets and Equine Senior. I soak them with warm water to make a "mush". Total weight that I feed him is about seven and a half pounds of pellets (mostly the Standlee) plus I add a little alfalfa hay and some timothy hay for him to munch on. He has lost quite a few teeth and this seems to be helping him gain and keep weight on. I agree, your boy looks pretty good!
ReplyDeleteFor his age, I think he looks wonderful! I've got a 25 year old so I'm familiar with Triple Crown Senior - LOVE that stuff, and I feed a LOT of it too.
ReplyDeleteIf he can't eat hay very well, you might try soaked alfalfa or hay pellets, cubes, and/or soaked beet pulp. My oldster gobbles that stuff down no problem, whereas he chews hay pretty slowly.
Another thing I've found is that he needs to be blanketed at far warmer temps than before. Sure, we live in the south and he's super fuzzy, but I'm now blanketing below 50 and before it would have been below 40. I know you blanket Harv so that might not help as much - just a thought though!
With the old, retired guys, especially the TB types, the lack of muscle tone just makes them look so much more pointy, even if their weight is technically OK. I wouldn't be terribly concerned unless he seems to have dropped a lot within a relatively short amount of time.
ReplyDeleteMost senior feeds are actually pretty low in fat, so the harder keepers need more of it to maintain healthy weight. I know many barns limit grain selection, but I've had good luck using Blue Seal's Performance LS on the old skinnies that came my way. (My two also eat it when they're in work, although they're pretty hearty otherwise.) It can be pricey and hard to find, but you end up feeding less of it per meal -- and the extruded pellets are much easier to chew and digest for an old guy with worn-out teeth.
I think he looks pretty decent. IMO you're definitely on the right track with the TC Senior, since it's 10% fat. Maybe he would benefit from some alfalfa pellets and Cocosoya oil. Like the above poster, I would nix the corn oil because of the high omega 6 fatty acids, which can lead to inflammation.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't look too bad to me, but I live with a hardkeeper so my perspective may be skewed. ;)
ReplyDeleteI worked at a farm with a 30 year-old horse who did very well on soaked hay cubes and senior feed. He had basically no teeth, but remained svelte and in good weight throughout his life. I think adding a third meal or including some chopped hay or hay cubes might help Harvey get the nutrients he needs from his forage.
There is no scientific evidence that corn oil causes inflammation in horses. There have been some small studies that suggest that oils from Omega 3 sources *may* provide anti-inflammatory effects but the studies were small and the results that I've seen are not overwhelming. Humans and horses often metabolize nutrients very differently, so it's not a good idea to extrapolate results! Most of the "advice" I've seen against feeding corn oil comes from experts at companies who are trying to sell you something "better", so I take it with a grain of salt. I personally discussed feeding oil with Dr. Valentine several years ago and asked her what type of oil she fed. Her answer? the least expensive. Oil is by far the easiest way to add calories but it's messy. When I was trying to put weight on my TB I fed him as much as two cups/day (built up gradually). Now that he's close to an ideal weight I feed Purina Amplify when I need to add more calories.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever tested him for Cushings? It's apparently very common in older horses. Does not always show up with the shaggy coat or other symptoms, but keeping weight on can be a problem. Just a thought. My Toby is on Cushings meds right now. In the summer his coat glowed, but he did founder...one of the other potential symptoms, of course.
ReplyDeleteThird that no corn oil advice - wrong omegas. 3's are good, 6's are bad. Cocosoya oil (we use Uckele's version, available from Valley Vet) does wonders for my guy. :D
ReplyDeleteI'm reading you loud and clear on the corn oil! I'd remembered something about corn oil being "suboptimal" but I didn't recall why, and I'm pretty sure other oils had their problems too. I'm worried about the Ultimate finish because Harv is getting soooo much food already, I'm not sure the added bulk is good for him. I hate asking barns to feed oil, and I appreciate the barn manager for being willing to deal with the mess, if temporarily. The corn oil is just a standin until my new smartpak comes in with the cool calories and cocosoya supps arrives.
ReplyDeleteI think he looks GOOD for an oldster who isn't working. Like someone else said, lack of muscle tone makes a big difference in appearance. And here's a 4th vote for nixing the corn oil. (We are using Strategy Healthy Edge to supplement my husband's gaunt old cutting horse, because it has higher fat than the Senior feeds, and he won't eat the Amplify supplement, which is the fatty portion.)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Anonymous and Frizzle, if you need calories and want to do oil, you really should switch to canola. Corn oil has an Omega 3:6 ratio of 1:87 or 0:59 depending on who you ask! Canola oil is only 1:4. Commercial grains are naturally high in Omega 6s as it is (and low in Omega 3s), so by giving him corn oil, you are further filling his system with Omega 6s. Pasture is the best obviously with Omega 3:6 of 5:1. 1.5 cups of Flax seed is also good (I feed it ground and stabilized) with Omega 3:6 of 4:1 - but it's not as high in calories as oil. 1 cup of oil has 2000 calories and 1.5 cups of ground flax only has 800. You could do flax seed oil, but that is VERY pricey. I always add extra Vit E when I up the fat intake. A good book is "Feed your Horse like a Horse" by Juliet Getty if you want some more info. Its a great resource and addresses the dietary needs of seniors.
ReplyDeleteOh this post is so cathartic! As we know how much we like to give other people horse advice! Yes he does look lean but this winter was rough. I found myself blanketing heavier more than I would like but honestly my guy, a TBWB, was happier and kept more weight. I moved Coz to a barn last February where she fed some Empower Boost (2 cups) along with a complete feed grain. This really brought his weight up gradually. Harv's coat looks very smooth and clean (not dry) If his appetite is normal, I bet the warmer weather will help.
ReplyDeleteI have a 34 yr. old QH going strong on Purina Senior and Healthy Edge mixed 1/2 and 1/2. I dump this on top of enough soaked timothy cubes that he finishes it all within a half hour. I feed this twice a day. He quids his hay but I give him some anyway just to keep him busy. The vet says most his teeth have gone but this diet is keeping him fat and so far sassy! (I sometimes think that his barn mate, a 17 yr. old OTTB is really what keeps him young!)
ReplyDeleteHarv looks awesome for his age. If you were heading into winter it might be worrysome but you're out the other end.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget that old joints shouldn't be carrying around too much weight. I know you wouldn't, but old horses should not be kept hog fat year round. Maybe heading into winter extra weight is ok but to be honest from these photos this is exactly where I would want him if he were mine and it was spring.
:)
I think the angle of the camera in the first photo was just funky. The second photo is more realistic, since it's straight-on. I think he looks pretty dang good for his age! I have a 29yo QH gelding, who has almost no molars. He gets Nutrena LifeDesign Senior and alfalfa pellets. He has free-choice hay that I have to "hand-select" from the bale; he can't chew it properly, so I have to make sure I give him flakes that are short-stemmed and soft. He's on a few supplements to help his aging digestive tract and keep his joints lubed up, and I've added Canola Oil recently. I've heard the omega 3:6 ratio is the best, and it's a cheap way to add fat to his diet. I also had some "base-line" bloodwork drawn...just in case he ran into any issues, then we'd know what his "normal" is. We found out he's anemic! I started him on Red Cell pellets (through SmartPak) and WOW!!! He has more energy and looks fabulous. I wouldn't worry too much about Harvey; as Lisa pointed out, we're at the tail end of winter and grass is going to start coming up soon. I'd definitely do some research before next winter, though. Again, I think he looks just wonderful!
ReplyDeleteOf course, my boy ends winter in a dry paddock at a Henneke score of 6.5!!! He gains on air. But, then again, he has Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy and metabolizes food weirdly. I can go out one day and he looks fine. Another, his back end looks gaunt. A couple days later, he looks like the Good Year blimp with legs. And, don't even start me on what happens if he eats a blade of grass ...
ReplyDeleteWithout actually putting my hands on Harv, it's difficult to score him, but honestly he looks a good, solid "5" to me, Stacey. I agree with the assessments on camera angle. If you take a photo of my fatty FriesianX from the front or angled from the front, he can be made to look like a kid's stick drawing with a huge head. :)
He looks great!! He just doesn't have as much muscle tone because he is an oldster and isn't in work. My mare always drops a bit when she is changes coats (spring and fall). I would be proud of that fine fella.
ReplyDeleteHe looks a way better on the second picture
ReplyDeleteI'm going to take another picture Monday -- think you'll see a diff.
ReplyDeleteHad an uber skinny minny who gained well on a once per day mash of 1 squirt Rations Plus, 1 oz Rice Bran Oil, 3qt. scoop of Alfalfa Cubes, 3 qt. scoop Plain Beet Pulp - put in large pail in a.m. cover with warm h2o, plumped up and ready to feed by noon. Good Luck!
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